Proven Techniques for Safer Events with Venus Piñeyro and Raf de Kimpe

Raf de Kimpe [00:00:00]:

I think there's just so much value in diversity when you're talking about events, and diversity is so much bigger than only gender. There's so much value in having diverse people in your team, in your board, on your stage in terms of speakers, and that will automatically translate to your audience as well. You are leaving so much untapped potential on the table if you don't create diverse events.

Alyssa Peltier [00:00:29]:

Great Events create great brands, but pulling off an event that engages, excites and connects audiences, well, that takes a village. And we're that village. My name is Alyssa.

Rachel Andrews [00:00:41]:

I'm Rachel.

Felicia Asiedu [00:00:42]:

And I'm Felicia.

Alyssa Peltier [00:00:43]:

And you are listening to Great Events, the podcast for all event enthusiasts, creators, and innovators in the world of events and marketing.

Felicia Asiedu [00:00:54]:

Hi, everyone. What has been going on in this wide, wide world of events? My name's Felicia and I am your host for today's episode. Now, today's episode, as I always say, if you've ever listened to me before, I say, "This one's close to my heart." I think this one, because we covered this talk about safeguarding at Cvent CONNECT Europe last year, it became near and dear to my heart because I got to understand what it meant to create a safe space. And I got to work with two wonderful partners at the time, one of which is joining us on this podcast today, and I'm so excited. So Venus, could you just say hello? Welcome to our podcast.

Venus Piñeyro [00:01:29]:

Hello. Good morning, everyone. Afternoon our evening. My name is Venus Pineyro. I am originally from Monterrey, Mexico, but I am based in Austin, Texas, and I am the CEO of the Inclusion Plus Institute and the creator of SafeSpace Plus. Super excited to be here.

Felicia Asiedu [00:01:46]:

Awesome. Excited to have you. Now, I met you last year, and Raf, I've always kind of known and heard about through the Grapevine. Everyone says, "He's great, he's wonderful." I agree. Every time I've met him, he's got so much energy. But I hear that you both met at Connect Europe. 

Felicia Asiedu [00:02:01]:

So Raf, say hello, tell us who you are. And how did you meet Venus?

Raf de Kimpe [00:02:05]:

Hi. Yes, good to hear that my reputation precedes me. It's a positive one. I'm Raf De Kimpe. I'm the CEO for Fintech Week London, which is a week-long event, as its name says, in London for the fintech industry. And like you said, I met Venus at Cvent CONNECT last year. That was a great introduction, and we ended up working together and now doing this podcast. So yeah, I'm really excited to talk about that today.

Felicia Asiedu [00:02:35]:

Amazing. So Venus, you've educated me, you've educated Raf, now you're both working together. Why don't you start by telling our listeners why you started SafeSpaces and maybe give us a few components as to how we would create a safe space?

Venus Piñeyro [00:02:50]:

Of course, I'm a little bit of a professional cat. I have nine lives in my background. But one of my latest iterations of this professional life was as a mediator and executive coach and diversity, equity and inclusion executive. And so, I went to a professional event, like all of us, looking to connect, to engage, to learn, and I experienced sexual harassment. And I shared a little bit about my background because if you had asked me before I experienced sexual harassment recently, "What would you do if this happened to you?" I would've told you, "Well, I would say this. I would behave in that way. I would react, I would talk." I would've told you all the things that I thought I would do. And yet, when it happened to me, I remember going back to my hotel room, it was a professional event and several days in duration, and I felt shame. And that was just mind-blowing to me. 

Venus Piñeyro [00:03:46]:

"How is it possible that having all this knowledge as an mediator and as a coach, and I led global teams at organizations like Meta and General Motors, I've been around the road here a few times, how is possible that I'm feeling shame?" When intellectually, I knew the answer to all the questions that were going through my head. "Did I cause it? Was it the way I was dressed?" And the answers intellectually were, "No, no, no." But that was very different from how I felt.

And so I didn't have who to reach out to, who to speak. I didn't know who exactly was the event organizer or the leader that could do something about this and hear about it. 

Venus Piñeyro [00:04:25]:

And so that's where I started SafeSpace Plus. And I wanted to address some of the big things that I could not find when I experienced misconduct. And that was leaders that were committed to creating a safe space, which is the first element. And Cvent has been such a forward-leaning organization, and so has Fintech Week London, to say, "We are making a statement and we are being very deliberate about telling everyone that our convening is a safe space."

The second one is having a code of conduct, where I was asked, "Well, how do you know it wasn't just flirting? How do you know it was misconduct or harassment?" And so, a very clear code of conduct is just the second and most critical element, where it's very well understood and everyone that steps foot in your space has agreed to the behaving in the way that aligns with your values and with your culture. And the third piece is a reporting mechanism that is anonymous, that is available, and that there's instant notification to at least a few accountable and responsible leaders that can do something about that. So that's a little bit of my why and what I've done about it.

Felicia Asiedu [00:05:35]:

Awesome. So good to hear. And just as you were talking and you were saying the first thing you thought about is the shame of it or the, "Was it me?" and all of that kind of stuff, we do hear that often happens with women. And Raf, being a male in the situation, what inspired you to work with Venus? And I say that, I don't know, I'm trying to catch my words in the right way, but normally women are there for women kind of supporting women, hear what other women have to say. And when we had the session, I know a lot of women were in the room, but you don't fit that mold, but yet you saw this as something quite important and said, "Actually, we need to connect." What inspired you to do that?

Raf de Kimpe [00:06:13]:

I think as everyone could hear, Venus inspired me. I had a conversation with her, I heard her story. And that, combined with my own experiences and events. Yes, I'm a white cisgendered man. Maybe a little part of it is I'm gay, so I do have a bit of an allyship with women. And I've seen it happening actually to women, and I'm always so bothered with the fact that there are harassment that has no gender and it's all across, unfortunately.

But I've seen it happen to my colleagues, where they're talked down to or somebody impedes on their personal space. As an ally or as a man, I try to help as much as I can, but as soon as I heard Venus's story, I thought, "Well, this is actually exactly what we need for our events 'cause that's what I want my event to be." 

Raf de Kimpe [00:07:00]:

We always make sure that we have a lot of attention for diversity in our events, so we have a big diverse crowd, which means in goes from traditional bankers, to people in startups, we have people of color, we have people of different backgrounds. And bringing all those people together, it's very important that everybody feels safe. And that's something for me that I've always tried to achieve. And we did that in a sort of, let's say, mix and matched way of trying to get an inclusion email address or trying to get something. So we did try something, but then as soon as I heard Venus's story and saw the solution, I thought, "Well, this is exactly what we need to make sure that or our events go the way we want to go, that everybody feels safe." And that's why I immediately said, I think on the spotlight, "Okay, we need this. Let's see how we can make this happen for Fintech Week London."

Felicia Asiedu [00:07:55]:

Amazing. And what difference did that make to the event that you had? You said you were cobbling it together before. What difference would you say that had? What impact?

Raf de Kimpe [00:08:03]:

I think one of the biggest differences was the clear guidance, and what for me had the biggest impact was the code of conduct that Venus already mentioned. I think it's a great way of telling people, "This is how we expect you to behave." And you would think that it's not necessary to tell people, but it's always good to remind them and say, "This is a professional setting, we have a range of people here, and we expect you to behave in a certain way that is respectful, that is not threatening, that there's no microaggressions." Even for people just in a sideways conversation or whatever, there's things that you can say that you don't intend to be abusive or don't want to offend someone, but when you say something, it can go the wrong way. And just reminding people, just quickly, right before they enter, "This is an event and we want everybody to feel good and feel safe," is I think already a big, big impact on your audience.

Raf de Kimpe [00:08:57]:

So for me, that made one of the biggest differences. Just also coming out with it and saying, "We want everybody to feel safe here," I think for the audience makes a difference and makes people feel seen, and heard and is how I want to feel when I go to an event. 'Cause yes, I have a lot of things going for me privilege-wise, but there's always small things, where even if men joke amongst men around, "Oh, that's gay," or something like that, and that comes up, I kind of feel like it's my, not my duty, but probably my character to respond to that. And I've always struggled with that in a professional setting, in a professional way, 'cause then you go, "Well, who is this person? Is he a sponsor or is he a partner? Is he important? Can I say something?" And by having that code of conduct, you just have something to refer to and you can say, me then in that case, as an event organizer, "Excuse me, but that kind of language is really not something we want here. And you signed that code of conduct, you saw that." So, I think the code of conduct for me was a great tool. There's a reporting tool behind that as well, which in our case, luckily we didn't need to use this year. But I think that's something, because the code of conduct is there, that people are a little bit more aware of their behavior, which is the key factor, I guess.

Felicia Asiedu [00:10:16]:

That's so awesome. We're always talking about putting audiences first, and that sounds like it gives them a freedom just to be themselves. And we talk about diversity all the time, but you're actually putting it out there and being like, "We are diverse and we create spaces that are safe for all people." Venus, is that something that's in high demand? Rafa's done the right thing. Hopefully we did the right thing, we took a decision, we made those choices. But are you seeing that that is a demand, that people are saying, "We want to do the right thing"?

Venus Piñeyro [00:10:47]:

Yes. And actually, it is happening more and more. I'm a Gen Xer, so I'll just put it out there. And the generational differences in our understanding of what is acceptable are changing now that we have five generations in the workplace. And I am very grateful that our younger generations, our millennials, our Gen Z generations have a much more vocal expectancy about what is right, what is wrong, what motivates them, what engages them.

And that is becoming more of a demand of, in the past there were things that were just accepted or considered okay or kind of a price of doing business, and that is no longer the case. So more and more people are beginning to expect and demand that for the events that they go to, for the organizations that they belong to. And more and more, I think, people of my generation and others are understanding that this is no longer a nice to have, it's a must-have.

And so the demand is increasing as those expectations are really shifting with the nature of not only generations, but the nature of technology, the connectedness that we have across the world, the understanding that with diversity comes the need for more acceptance and the ability to be safe wherever you go, the events that you participate in, and connecting that to the business outcomes.

Venus Piñeyro [00:12:21]:

You want to do it because it's the right thing, but also you want to do it because if you have an event and your attendees feel safe, they will be more engaged, they will be more likely to learn and to put in place the skills that they have learned at the events. And so it's connecting that business outcomes with the human driver to be good people with the generations. So put all of that in a blender, and yes, people are more and more demanding and expecting that the spaces they go into are safe.

Raf de Kimpe [00:12:53]:

It also gives you a peace of mind as an organizer to know that there is a system in place, and that if somebody does feel that something goes wrong, there's a great way for them to report it. So I think on my side as an event organizer, not only do I think it's important and I want to feel safe in my own event and everybody to feel safe, but also from an organizational standpoint, you know there is a route people can take to get an anonymous report in. You can handle it in the right way. SafeSpace also gives you some training and some proposed wording that you can use in the process. 'Cause you can do a lot wrong after something goes wrong as well, right? You can have the wrong reaction, the wrong response.

Raf de Kimpe [00:13:33]:

And that's something that I've seen in the past, where event organizers react to something, and with all the best intentions in the world, make something actually from worse by, for instance, putting all the responsibility with the victim of saying, "What do you want to do and what do you want us to do?" And all of that came within the package and is something that's so important for event organizers to just know the peace of mind, that there is a code of conduct, there is a process, there is a way to react, and there's a clear way of how we're going to approach issues if and when they arise. So yeah, that for me, the peace of mind of that mutual respect being there is something that was great to have at the event.

Felicia Asiedu [00:14:13]:

I'm going to ask a hard question based on that. Something you may not have thought, like, "Oh, I hope she doesn't ask me something wild," but it got me thinking, earlier you mentioned, "What if that's one of our lead sponsors? What if that's a partner?" So, with all the systems and tools and processes in place, let's imagine something happens. I'm going to give you an example of something that happened to me. I was on a dance floor at a corporate event and a guy put his whole hand on my chest. Now, he wasn't touching anything sensitive, but we're dancing and he just decided, "I'ma put my whole hand on your chest." And I was like, "huh." Really caught off guard 'cause, "Why is he touching me?" So if I came to you, Raf, and I'm at your event, and I'm like, "That man put his whole hand on my chest and I am so uncomfortable now," but he's your lead sponsor or someone super serious, what do you do? What do you actually do? Do we escort him out and refer to the code of conduct or what's the recourse?

Raf de Kimpe [00:15:05]:

Well, yes, quite short answer. If the behavior was not according to the code of conduct, then it is our option to remove someone from the event. And I would if that means that the event is at that place no longer safe for you or for anyone else. So, I don't think it really matters in this case who that person is. 'Cause it was very clear from the set out for everyone, we gave the code of conduct to our speakers, to our sponsors and partners, we gave them to all the attendees. So everybody who entered the room knew. There were a bunch of banners around, I said it in my introduction, "This is a place where there's zero tolerance for harassment."

Raf de Kimpe [00:15:46]:

So, as soon as you come to me or use the app and do it anonymously, either way, there is going to be a reaction. And if we feel with the team, because there's a team of people that goes through that process, if we feel that the correct response would be to remove that person, then we could. And we could do so a lot easier than in the past, 'cause we could easily say, "Listen, I'm very sorry, it's nothing personal, but here's the code of conduct. This is what you signed. This is a behavior that goes against it. Would you mind leaving the premises?"And I think it's a no-brainer because you have a very clear set of rules that people have to adhere to. So it makes it a lot easier than in the past where I would have had that situation, where I'm like, "Okay, how do I respond to this? What do I need to do? Is this behavior that we want or not?" Well, clearly not. As soon as you, any person comes to me and says, "I felt unsafe, I felt harassed, I felt uncomfortable," we need to have a reaction.

Raf de Kimpe [00:16:44]:

Obviously, the reaction is in proportionate to the original action, but in your example, where you say somebody touched you inappropriately and that's something you didn't want, then it's quite easy to just go to that person and say, "Maybe it's better for today if you're no longer here." If it would be a sponsor, where it's a high-level sponsor, then I probably first would go to my contact person at that sponsor and kind of tell them, "This is what happened, this is what's going to happen." Just so the team that's surrounding that person knows what's happening and can follow up. But then I would definitely take action on that, which is, again, like I said, the only human way to go. There has to be respect either way.

Raf de Kimpe [00:17:27]:

No matter what your title is, what your role is, how much you paid us. If you don't have respect, then then you're not supposed to be at our events. And quite luckily, I feel we also call our sponsors actually partners 'cause it's always a two-way street. We try to make sure that everybody gets something out of it. And I feel like with every partner that we have, there's at least one person that we can trust and talk to. So yeah, for us, I think action would be taken in that example. And I'm sorry to hear that that happened to you.

Felicia Asiedu [00:17:59]:

Oh, that's amazing to hear you say that. Sorry, Venus, go on.

Venus Piñeyro [00:18:02]:

No, I wanted to highlight something that Raf said, that connects to the difficulty of the question you posed. What do you do if it's one of your lead sponsors? And that is that not only attendees have agreed to the code of conduct, but Raf went and made sure that vendors, sponsors, partners, many people also do it with their venues, that everyone is aware not only that they are committing to the code of conduct, but that they are also entitled to feel safe. We've heard from a lot of vendors that they go to events and end up in situations that are incredibly harmful to them psychologically, and many times, sometimes even physically, letting people know that if you're stepping in, you have the right to respect. You're in that space. Everybody does. And as an organizer like Raf, as a leader, you will do something no matter who you are. You have been convened by this entity and you will be protected and you can expect the same thing.

Venus Piñeyro [00:19:08]:

And the other thing that I wanted to point out is that I'm very happy to hear, Raf, that you had no incidents. And that's the stories that we hear over and over. When people implement SafeSpace Plus, events that had been very problematic in the past have zero incidents. And that is just when you make it very clear what you expect of people and you let them know that they will be held accountable and they know what they're being held accountable to, then all of a sudden, people that were going to behave, well, they still behave, but people that were not going to behave, then they behave. And that has just been one of the most unexpected and beautiful surprises about the solution, is that when you put in the small amount of time and effort, yet the big amount of courage to implement this, then your events are safe and you don't have issues to deal with. That, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure," is just so true.

Raf de Kimpe [00:19:58]:

To jump on that, you said with the different generations as well. I think there's a way of presenting this as well, where I think from the different generations you get different responses, and you do get that response of, "Oh, but I've been to so many events, I don't think really things happen. Is this really necessary?" Or you get the response of, "Oh, what happened at your event that you think you need this now?" Or you get all these different kind of reactions, but as soon as you explain to people, it doesn't have to be a great big thing that happened at your event, or there is no... 'Cause some people just think, "Oh, well actually people should know." Right? You're in business, you're going to a business event. But unfortunately, people don't. Everybody I have a conversation with about SafeSpace, and that's not only women, but everybody I speak to has an example of when they felt unsafe or harmed at an event from their company, whether it's because their own boss did something or it's external partner, or it's somebody else, or they heard somebody say something that made you feel uncomfortable. Everybody has at least, unfortunately, one example of when they didn't feel safe in a corporate event. So, when you hear that from everybody that you talk to, you kind of realize that yes, it is necessary. And it's not because you are oblivious to what happens around you that it's not happening. And I think that's one of the most important things here, is to make sure that everybody realizes it doesn't need a big scandal or drama for this to be started at your organization or your event. You want to do it because of all the things that you didn't see probably, and you want to prevent those from happening.

Raf de Kimpe [00:21:32]:

And if those happen, you want people to have a way of reaching you anonymously and safe, and you want to have a process in place. So yeah, I would love if this becomes a standard and if everybody, instead of saying, "Why are you doing this? Is it really necessary?" goes, "Why are you not doing this? Why is this not a safe event?"

Felicia Asiedu [00:21:56]:

I love to hear that. And I think that helps us to take into our final couple of questions. I love that point of, "Why are you not doing this?" I was even going to ask, would people be worried? And Raf, you just helped to answer that so wonderfully with, actually, it's not about, you should be worried 'cause you see the signs. I think what you said, Venus, the signs are like CCTV almost, where it's kind of like, "Hey, we are watching, we are available to talk to you." So, it is just almost like a precaution. But Venus, I want to just ask you, as we think about our final thoughts, do you have any kind of final advice for our listeners? You could be event planner. If you are event planner, you could be event attendee, you could be hotelier listening to our podcast today. What would you say is a final piece of advice for anyone listening?

Venus Piñeyro [00:22:39]:

I would say don't be afraid of opening that box of, what does your event, your organization, your venue look like? And understanding that there's always things that you can do, whether you use our solution or you just do it yourself. Just having the courage that people like Raf and Felicia, you all at Cvent have had to say, "Okay, it doesn't have to be because we are not a safe organization that we're doing this. We're doing this because we want to be safer. We want everyone to be engaged."

And so, I would say have the courage to do something. It's simple, it has tangible impact on everyone, and more and more in the future, you will be able to see that the benefits of taking these small steps within your organization will make you into a leader that is considered an innovator. It will have people benefits, which at the end of the day, that is what the world is about. This human connection and those connections is what creates innovation and the business outcomes that we're looking for. So, like Raf said, 99% of all incidents are unreported. Make sure that you are in a place where you are doing something, it's achievable.

Felicia Asiedu [00:24:05]:

I love to hear that. And I remember you saying to me at one point, if they don't report it to you, they might report it to someone else, social media, their friends, you become the part of the gossip mill. So, I love hearing that piece of advice, that don't be afraid, be courageous, as Raf is. Aren't you being hailed today by both of us women today, Raf? But what would be your final piece for advice for our listeners? Raf?

Raf de Kimpe [00:24:28]:

I think there's just so much value in diversity when you're talking about events, and diversity is so much bigger than only gender. There's so much value in having diverse people in your team, in your board, on your stage in terms of speakers, and that will automatically translate to your audience as well. You are leaving so much untapped potential on the table if you don't create diverse events, but if you want to set up a diverse event and reach everybody, you have to have that baseline of everybody feeling safe to be there. And I think one of the biggest things that I heard here, is don't be afraid. And that's, as an event organizer, don't be afraid to set this up, but also don't be afraid to ask for help. A lot of people say, "Oh, it's hard to create a diversity event." It's not that hard if you surround yourself with the right people. Find a mentor, talk to people like yourself, Felicia or like Venus, or reach out to different allies, reach out to other people in the event business where you see, "Oh, that's actually a good example of how I want my event to be." There's so much out there in terms of help if you want to do the right thing. So don't be afraid and don't do it just to check the boxes. You need to do it because you're passionate about it, because you believe in it, and then it won't be hard. I think everybody who says it's hard is because they have to check a box that they're not really behind. So find another way. Find a way to get behind that box that you need to check, and do it that way so that you can create an environment where everybody who goes to an event feels safe. I think that's my main advice.

Felicia Asiedu [00:26:05]:

That's right. And such good advice. And Venus, you are one of those allies. So where can our listeners find you if they would like to partner with you?

Venus Piñeyro [00:26:13]:

Safespace.global.

Felicia Asiedu [00:26:15]:

Safespace.global. You heard it here first. And Raf, Fintech Week, is it open to all?

Raf de Kimpe [00:26:21]:

Fintech Week is open to all, and they can find us on Fintechweek.london. And of course, it's very specific for people who are interested in the fintech world. I think that's a prerequisite. Although everybody's welcome, I think you'll get the most out of it if you're interested in fintech, or on our a LinkedIn page or my personal LinkedIn page, where I'm always happy to connect to people who have questions, whether it's about the event or the diversity and safety angle.

Felicia Asiedu [00:26:45]:

Brilliant. Well, thank you so much both of you for joining me today. Such a wonderful, wonderful conversation. I really appreciate it.

Alyssa Peltier [00:26:55]:

Thanks for hanging out with us on Great Events, a podcast by Cvent. If you've been enjoying our podcast, make sure to hit that subscribe button so you never miss an episode.

Rachel Andrews [00:27:05]:

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Felicia Asiedu [00:27:14]:

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Rachel Andrews [00:27:21]:

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Felicia Asiedu [00:27:30]:

Big thanks to our amazing listeners, our guest speakers, and the incredible team behind the scenes. Remember, every great event begins with great people.

Alyssa Peltier [00:27:40]:

And that's a wrap. Keep creating, keep innovating, and keep joining us as we redefine how to make events great.