Raf de Kimpe [00:00:00]:

I think there's just so much value in diversity when you're talking about events, and diversity is so much bigger than only gender. There's so much value in having diverse people in your team, in your board, on your stage in terms of speakers, and that will automatically translate to your audience as well. You are leaving so much untapped potential on the table if you don't create diverse events.

Alyssa Peltier [00:00:29]:

Great Events create great brands, but pulling off an event that engages, excites and connects audiences, well, that takes a village. And we're that village. My name is Alyssa.

Rachel Andrews [00:00:41]:

I'm Rachel.

Felicia Asiedu [00:00:42]:

And I'm Felicia.

Alyssa Peltier [00:00:43]:

And you are listening to Great Events, the podcast for all event enthusiasts, creators, and innovators in the world of events and marketing.

Felicia Asiedu [00:00:54]:

Hi, everyone. What has been going on in this wide, wide world of events? My name's Felicia and I am your host for today's episode. Now, today's episode, as I always say, if you've ever listened to me before, I say, "This one's close to my heart." I think this one, because we covered this talk about safeguarding at Cvent CONNECT Europe last year, it became near and dear to my heart because I got to understand what it meant to create a safe space. And I got to work with two wonderful partners at the time, one of which is joining us on this podcast today, and I'm so excited. So Venus, could you just say hello? Welcome to our podcast.

Venus Piñeyro [00:01:29]:

Hello. Good morning, everyone. Afternoon our evening. My name is Venus Pineyro. I am originally from Monterrey, Mexico, but I am based in Austin, Texas, and I am the CEO of the Inclusion Plus Institute and the creator of SafeSpace Plus. Super excited to be here.

Felicia Asiedu [00:01:46]:

Awesome. Excited to have you. Now, I met you last year, and Raf, I've always kind of known and heard about through the Grapevine. Everyone says, "He's great, he's wonderful." I agree. Every time I've met him, he's got so much energy. But I hear that you both met at Connect Europe. 

Felicia Asiedu [00:02:01]:

So Raf, say hello, tell us who you are. And how did you meet Venus?

Raf de Kimpe [00:02:05]:

Hi. Yes, good to hear that my reputation precedes me. It's a positive one. I'm Raf De Kimpe. I'm the CEO for Fintech Week London, which is a week-long event, as its name says, in London for the fintech industry. And like you said, I met Venus at Cvent CONNECT last year. That was a great introduction, and we ended up working together and now doing this podcast. So yeah, I'm really excited to talk about that today.

Felicia Asiedu [00:02:35]:

Amazing. So Venus, you've educated me, you've educated Raf, now you're both working together. Why don't you start by telling our listeners why you started SafeSpaces and maybe give us a few components as to how we would create a safe space?

Venus Piñeyro [00:02:50]:

Of course, I'm a little bit of a professional cat. I have nine lives in my background. But one of my latest iterations of this professional life was as a mediator and executive coach and diversity, equity and inclusion executive. And so, I went to a professional event, like all of us, looking to connect, to engage, to learn, and I experienced sexual harassment. And I shared a little bit about my background because if you had asked me before I experienced sexual harassment recently, "What would you do if this happened to you?" I would've told you, "Well, I would say this. I would behave in that way. I would react, I would talk." I would've told you all the things that I thought I would do. And yet, when it happened to me, I remember going back to my hotel room, it was a professional event and several days in duration, and I felt shame. And that was just mind-blowing to me. 

Venus Piñeyro [00:03:46]:

"How is it possible that having all this knowledge as an mediator and as a coach, and I led global teams at organizations like Meta and General Motors, I've been around the road here a few times, how is possible that I'm feeling shame?" When intellectually, I knew the answer to all the questions that were going through my head. "Did I cause it? Was it the way I was dressed?" And the answers intellectually were, "No, no, no." But that was very different from how I felt.

And so I didn't have who to reach out to, who to speak. I didn't know who exactly was the event organizer or the leader that could do something about this and hear about it. 

Venus Piñeyro [00:04:25]:

And so that's where I started SafeSpace Plus. And I wanted to address some of the big things that I could not find when I experienced misconduct. And that was leaders that were committed to creating a safe space, which is the first element. And Cvent has been such a forward-leaning organization, and so has Fintech Week London, to say, "We are making a statement and we are being very deliberate about telling everyone that our convening is a safe space."

The second one is having a code of conduct, where I was asked, "Well, how do you know it wasn't just flirting? How do you know it was misconduct or harassment?" And so, a very clear code of conduct is just the second and most critical element, where it's very well understood and everyone that steps foot in your space has agreed to the behaving in the way that aligns with your values and with your culture. And the third piece is a reporting mechanism that is anonymous, that is available, and that there's instant notification to at least a few accountable and responsible leaders that can do something about that. So that's a little bit of my why and what I've done about it.

Felicia Asiedu [00:05:35]:

Awesome. So good to hear. And just as you were talking and you were saying the first thing you thought about is the shame of it or the, "Was it me?" and all of that kind of stuff, we do hear that often happens with women. And Raf, being a male in the situation, what inspired you to work with Venus? And I say that, I don't know, I'm trying to catch my words in the right way, but normally women are there for women kind of supporting women, hear what other women have to say. And when we had the session, I know a lot of women were in the room, but you don't fit that mold, but yet you saw this as something quite important and said, "Actually, we need to connect." What inspired you to do that?

Raf de Kimpe [00:06:13]:

I think as everyone could hear, Venus inspired me. I had a conversation with her, I heard her story. And that, combined with my own experiences and events. Yes, I'm a white cisgendered man. Maybe a little part of it is I'm gay, so I do have a bit of an allyship with women. And I've seen it happening actually to women, and I'm always so bothered with the fact that there are harassment that has no gender and it's all across, unfortunately.

But I've seen it happen to my colleagues, where they're talked down to or somebody impedes on their personal space. As an ally or as a man, I try to help as much as I can, but as soon as I heard Venus's story, I thought, "Well, this is actually exactly what we need for our events 'cause that's what I want my event to be." 

Raf de Kimpe [00:07:00]:

We always make sure that we have a lot of attention for diversity in our events, so we have a big diverse crowd, which means in goes from traditional bankers, to people in startups, we have people of color, we have people of different backgrounds. And bringing all those people together, it's very important that everybody feels safe. And that's something for me that I've always tried to achieve. And we did that in a sort of, let's say, mix and matched way of trying to get an inclusion email address or trying to get something. So we did try something, but then as soon as I heard Venus's story and saw the solution, I thought, "Well, this is exactly what we need to make sure that or our events go the way we want to go, that everybody feels safe." And that's why I immediately said, I think on the spotlight, "Okay, we need this. Let's see how we can make this happen for Fintech Week London."

Felicia Asiedu [00:07:55]:

Amazing. And what difference did that make to the event that you had? You said you were cobbling it together before. What difference would you say that had? What impact?

Raf de Kimpe [00:08:03]:

I think one of the biggest differences was the clear guidance, and what for me had the biggest impact was the code of conduct that Venus already mentioned. I think it's a great way of telling people, "This is how we expect you to behave." And you would think that it's not necessary to tell people, but it's always good to remind them and say, "This is a professional setting, we have a range of people here, and we expect you to behave in a certain way that is respectful, that is not threatening, that there's no microaggressions." Even for people just in a sideways conversation or whatever, there's things that you can say that you don't intend to be abusive or don't want to offend someone, but when you say something, it can go the wrong way. And just reminding people, just quickly, right before they enter, "This is an event and we want everybody to feel good and feel safe," is I think already a big, big impact on your audience.

Raf de Kimpe [00:08:57]:

So for me, that made one of the biggest differences. Just also coming out with it and saying, "We want everybody to feel safe here," I think for the audience makes a difference and makes people feel seen, and heard and is how I want to feel when I go to an event. 'Cause yes, I have a lot of things going for me privilege-wise, but there's always small things, where even if men joke amongst men around, "Oh, that's gay," or something like that, and that comes up, I kind of feel like it's my, not my duty, but probably my character to respond to that. And I've always struggled with that in a professional setting, in a professional way, 'cause then you go, "Well, who is this person? Is he a sponsor or is he a partner? Is he important? Can I say something?" And by having that code of conduct, you just have something to refer to and you can say, me then in that case, as an event organizer, "Excuse me, but that kind of language is really not something we want here. And you signed that code of conduct, you saw that." So, I think the code of conduct for me was a great tool. There's a reporting tool behind that as well, which in our case, luckily we didn't need to use this year. But I think that's something, because the code of conduct is there, that people are a little bit more aware of their behavior, which is the key factor, I guess.

Felicia Asiedu [00:10:16]:

That's so awesome. We're always talking about putting audiences first, and that sounds like it gives them a freedom just to be themselves. And we talk about diversity all the time, but you're actually putting it out there and being like, "We are diverse and we create spaces that are safe for all people." Venus, is that something that's in high demand? Rafa's done the right thing. Hopefully we did the right thing, we took a decision, we made those choices. But are you seeing that that is a demand, that people are saying, "We want to do the right thing"?

Venus Piñeyro [00:10:47]:

Yes. And actually, it is happening more and more. I'm a Gen Xer, so I'll just put it out there. And the generational differences in our understanding of what is acceptable are changing now that we have five generations in the workplace. And I am very grateful that our younger generations, our millennials, our Gen Z generations have a much more vocal expectancy about what is right, what is wrong, what motivates them, what engages them.

And that is becoming more of a demand of, in the past there were things that were just accepted or considered okay or kind of a price of doing business, and that is no longer the case. So more and more people are beginning to expect and demand that for the events that they go to, for the organizations that they belong to. And more and more, I think, people of my generation and others are understanding that this is no longer a nice to have, it's a must-have.

And so the demand is increasing as those expectations are really shifting with the nature of not only generations, but the nature of technology, the connectedness that we have across the world, the understanding that with diversity comes the need for more acceptance and the ability to be safe wherever you go, the events that you participate in, and connecting that to the business outcomes.

Venus Piñeyro [00:12:21]:

You want to do it because it's the right thing, but also you want to do it because if you have an event and your attendees feel safe, they will be more engaged, they will be more likely to learn and to put in place the skills that they have learned at the events. And so it's connecting that business outcomes with the human driver to be good people with the generations. So put all of that in a blender, and yes, people are more and more demanding and expecting that the spaces they go into are safe.

Raf de Kimpe [00:12:53]:

It also gives you a peace of mind as an organizer to know that there is a system in place, and that if somebody does feel that something goes wrong, there's a great way for them to report it. So I think on my side as an event organizer, not only do I think it's important and I want to feel safe in my own event and everybody to feel safe, but also from an organizational standpoint, you know there is a route people can take to get an anonymous report in. You can handle it in the right way. SafeSpace also gives you some training and some proposed wording that you can use in the process. 'Cause you can do a lot wrong after something goes wrong as well, right? You can have the wrong reaction, the wrong response.

Raf de Kimpe [00:13:33]:

And that's something that I've seen in the past, where event organizers react to something, and with all the best intentions in the world, make something actually from worse by, for instance, putting all the responsibility with the victim of saying, "What do you want to do and what do you want us to do?" And all of that came within the package and is something that's so important for event organizers to just know the peace of mind, that there is a code of conduct, there is a process, there is a way to react, and there's a clear way of how we're going to approach issues if and when they arise. So yeah, that for me, the peace of mind of that mutual respect being there is something that was great to have at the event.

Felicia Asiedu [00:14:13]:

I'm going to ask a hard question based on that. Something you may not have thought, like, "Oh, I hope she doesn't ask me something wild," but it got me thinking, earlier you mentioned, "What if that's one of our lead sponsors? What if that's a partner?" So, with all the systems and tools and processes in place, let's imagine something happens. I'm going to give you an example of something that happened to me. I was on a dance floor at a corporate event and a guy put his whole hand on my chest. Now, he wasn't touching anything sensitive, but we're dancing and he just decided, "I'ma put my whole hand on your chest." And I was like, "huh." Really caught off guard 'cause, "Why is he touching me?" So if I came to you, Raf, and I'm at your event, and I'm like, "That man put his whole hand on my chest and I am so uncomfortable now," but he's your lead sponsor or someone super serious, what do you do? What do you actually do? Do we escort him out and refer to the code of conduct or what's the recourse?

Raf de Kimpe [00:15:05]:

Well, yes, quite short answer. If the behavior was not according to the code of conduct, then it is our option to remove someone from the event. And I would if that means that the event is at that place no longer safe for you or for anyone else. So, I don't think it really matters in this case who that person is. 'Cause it was very clear from the set out for everyone, we gave the code of conduct to our speakers, to our sponsors and partners, we gave them to all the attendees. So everybody who entered the room knew. There were a bunch of banners around, I said it in my introduction, "This is a place where there's zero tolerance for harassment."

Raf de Kimpe [00:15:46]:

So, as soon as you come to me or use the app and do it anonymously, either way, there is going to be a reaction. And if we feel with the team, because there's a team of people that goes through that process, if we feel that the correct response would be to remove that person, then we could. And we could do so a lot easier than in the past, 'cause we could easily say, "Listen, I'm very sorry, it's nothing personal, but here's the code of conduct. This is what you signed. This is a behavior that goes against it. Would you mind leaving the premises?"And I think it's a no-brainer because you have a very clear set of rules that people have to adhere to. So it makes it a lot easier than in the past where I would have had that situation, where I'm like, "Okay, how do I respond to this? What do I need to do? Is this behavior that we want or not?" Well, clearly not. As soon as you, any person comes to me and says, "I felt unsafe, I felt harassed, I felt uncomfortable," we need to have a reaction.

Raf de Kimpe [00:16:44]:

Obviously, the reaction is in proportionate to the original action, but in your example, where you say somebody touched you inappropriately and that's something you didn't want, then it's quite easy to just go to that person and say, "Maybe it's better for today if you're no longer here." If it would be a sponsor, where it's a high-level sponsor, then I probably first would go to my contact person at that sponsor and kind of tell them, "This is what happened, this is what's going to happen." Just so the team that's surrounding that person knows what's happening and can follow up. But then I would definitely take action on that, which is, again, like I said, the only human way to go. There has to be respect either way.

Raf de Kimpe [00:17:27]:

No matter what your title is, what your role is, how much you paid us. If you don't have respect, then then you're not supposed to be at our events. And quite luckily, I feel we also call our sponsors actually partners 'cause it's always a two-way street. We try to make sure that everybody gets something out of it. And I feel like with every partner that we have, there's at least one person that we can trust and talk to. So yeah, for us, I think action would be taken in that example. And I'm sorry to hear that that happened to you.

Felicia Asiedu [00:17:59]:

Oh, that's amazing to hear you say that. Sorry, Venus, go on.

Venus Piñeyro [00:18:02]:

No, I wanted to highlight something that Raf said, that connects to the difficulty of the question you posed. What do you do if it's one of your lead sponsors? And that is that not only attendees have agreed to the code of conduct, but Raf went and made sure that vendors, sponsors, partners, many people also do it with their venues, that everyone is aware not only that they are committing to the code of conduct, but that they are also entitled to feel safe. We've heard from a lot of vendors that they go to events and end up in situations that are incredibly harmful to them psychologically, and many times, sometimes even physically, letting people know that if you're stepping in, you have the right to respect. You're in that space. Everybody does. And as an organizer like Raf, as a leader, you will do something no matter who you are. You have been convened by this entity and you will be protected and you can expect the same thing.

Venus Piñeyro [00:19:08]:

And the other thing that I wanted to point out is that I'm very happy to hear, Raf, that you had no incidents. And that's the stories that we hear over and over. When people implement SafeSpace Plus, events that had been very problematic in the past have zero incidents. And that is just when you make it very clear what you expect of people and you let them know that they will be held accountable and they know what they're being held accountable to, then all of a sudden, people that were going to behave, well, they still behave, but people that were not going to behave, then they behave. And that has just been one of the most unexpected and beautiful surprises about the solution, is that when you put in the small amount of time and effort, yet the big amount of courage to implement this, then your events are safe and you don't have issues to deal with. That, "An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure," is just so true.

Raf de Kimpe [00:19:58]:

To jump on that, you said with the different generations as well. I think there's a way of presenting this as well, where I think from the different generations you get different responses, and you do get that response of, "Oh, but I've been to so many events, I don't think really things happen. Is this really necessary?" Or you get the response of, "Oh, what happened at your event that you think you need this now?" Or you get all these different kind of reactions, but as soon as you explain to people, it doesn't have to be a great big thing that happened at your event, or there is no... 'Cause some people just think, "Oh, well actually people should know." Right? You're in business, you're going to a business event. But unfortunately, people don't. Everybody I have a conversation with about SafeSpace, and that's not only women, but everybody I speak to has an example of when they felt unsafe or harmed at an event from their company, whether it's because their own boss did something or it's external partner, or it's somebody else, or they heard somebody say something that made you feel uncomfortable. Everybody has at least, unfortunately, one example of when they didn't feel safe in a corporate event. So, when you hear that from everybody that you talk to, you kind of realize that yes, it is necessary. And it's not because you are oblivious to what happens around you that it's not happening. And I think that's one of the most important things here, is to make sure that everybody realizes it doesn't need a big scandal or drama for this to be started at your organization or your event. You want to do it because of all the things that you didn't see probably, and you want to prevent those from happening.

Raf de Kimpe [00:21:32]:

And if those happen, you want people to have a way of reaching you anonymously and safe, and you want to have a process in place. So yeah, I would love if this becomes a standard and if everybody, instead of saying, "Why are you doing this? Is it really necessary?" goes, "Why are you not doing this? Why is this not a safe event?"

Felicia Asiedu [00:21:56]:

I love to hear that. And I think that helps us to take into our final couple of questions. I love that point of, "Why are you not doing this?" I was even going to ask, would people be worried? And Raf, you just helped to answer that so wonderfully with, actually, it's not about, you should be worried 'cause you see the signs. I think what you said, Venus, the signs are like CCTV almost, where it's kind of like, "Hey, we are watching, we are available to talk to you." So, it is just almost like a precaution. But Venus, I want to just ask you, as we think about our final thoughts, do you have any kind of final advice for our listeners? You could be event planner. If you are event planner, you could be event attendee, you could be hotelier listening to our podcast today. What would you say is a final piece of advice for anyone listening?

Venus Piñeyro [00:22:39]:

I would say don't be afraid of opening that box of, what does your event, your organization, your venue look like? And understanding that there's always things that you can do, whether you use our solution or you just do it yourself. Just having the courage that people like Raf and Felicia, you all at Cvent have had to say, "Okay, it doesn't have to be because we are not a safe organization that we're doing this. We're doing this because we want to be safer. We want everyone to be engaged."

And so, I would say have the courage to do something. It's simple, it has tangible impact on everyone, and more and more in the future, you will be able to see that the benefits of taking these small steps within your organization will make you into a leader that is considered an innovator. It will have people benefits, which at the end of the day, that is what the world is about. This human connection and those connections is what creates innovation and the business outcomes that we're looking for. So, like Raf said, 99% of all incidents are unreported. Make sure that you are in a place where you are doing something, it's achievable.

Felicia Asiedu [00:24:05]:

I love to hear that. And I remember you saying to me at one point, if they don't report it to you, they might report it to someone else, social media, their friends, you become the part of the gossip mill. So, I love hearing that piece of advice, that don't be afraid, be courageous, as Raf is. Aren't you being hailed today by both of us women today, Raf? But what would be your final piece for advice for our listeners? Raf?

Raf de Kimpe [00:24:28]:

I think there's just so much value in diversity when you're talking about events, and diversity is so much bigger than only gender. There's so much value in having diverse people in your team, in your board, on your stage in terms of speakers, and that will automatically translate to your audience as well. You are leaving so much untapped potential on the table if you don't create diverse events, but if you want to set up a diverse event and reach everybody, you have to have that baseline of everybody feeling safe to be there. And I think one of the biggest things that I heard here, is don't be afraid. And that's, as an event organizer, don't be afraid to set this up, but also don't be afraid to ask for help. A lot of people say, "Oh, it's hard to create a diversity event." It's not that hard if you surround yourself with the right people. Find a mentor, talk to people like yourself, Felicia or like Venus, or reach out to different allies, reach out to other people in the event business where you see, "Oh, that's actually a good example of how I want my event to be." There's so much out there in terms of help if you want to do the right thing. So don't be afraid and don't do it just to check the boxes. You need to do it because you're passionate about it, because you believe in it, and then it won't be hard. I think everybody who says it's hard is because they have to check a box that they're not really behind. So find another way. Find a way to get behind that box that you need to check, and do it that way so that you can create an environment where everybody who goes to an event feels safe. I think that's my main advice.

Felicia Asiedu [00:26:05]:

That's right. And such good advice. And Venus, you are one of those allies. So where can our listeners find you if they would like to partner with you?

Venus Piñeyro [00:26:13]:

Safespace.global.

Felicia Asiedu [00:26:15]:

Safespace.global. You heard it here first. And Raf, Fintech Week, is it open to all?

Raf de Kimpe [00:26:21]:

Fintech Week is open to all, and they can find us on Fintechweek.london. And of course, it's very specific for people who are interested in the fintech world. I think that's a prerequisite. Although everybody's welcome, I think you'll get the most out of it if you're interested in fintech, or on our a LinkedIn page or my personal LinkedIn page, where I'm always happy to connect to people who have questions, whether it's about the event or the diversity and safety angle.

Felicia Asiedu [00:26:45]:

Brilliant. Well, thank you so much both of you for joining me today. Such a wonderful, wonderful conversation. I really appreciate it.

Alyssa Peltier [00:26:55]:

Thanks for hanging out with us on Great Events, a podcast by Cvent. If you've been enjoying our podcast, make sure to hit that subscribe button so you never miss an episode.

Rachel Andrews [00:27:05]:

And you can help fellow event professionals and marketers just like you, discover Great Events by leaving us a rating on Apple, Spotify, or your preferred podcast platform.

Felicia Asiedu [00:27:14]:

Stay connected with us on social media for behind the scenes content, updates, and some extra doses of inspiration.

Rachel Andrews [00:27:21]:

Got a great story or an event to share. We want to hear from you, find us on LinkedIn, send us a DM, or drop us a note at Great Events at cvent.com.

Felicia Asiedu [00:27:30]:

Big thanks to our amazing listeners, our guest speakers, and the incredible team behind the scenes. Remember, every great event begins with great people.

Alyssa Peltier [00:27:40]:

And that's a wrap. Keep creating, keep innovating, and keep joining us as we redefine how to make events great.

Andrew Perrott [00:00:00]:

It's as simple as just coming to something very honestly and straightforwardly. I would like to think that anyone I work with would tell you I'm very honest, good, bad, or otherwise, and I'd be a terrible poker player and all that sort of thing. And again, I would like to think that is consistent. That's whether or not it's an internal or with a client or with a partner, whomever. And I think as long as you've got that, as long as you don't have an ulterior motive, and as long as you treat people respectfully and you're very clear about what your expectations are, you can't do much more than that, really. And then the personal side of it takes over.

Alyssa Peltier [00:00:35]:

Great events create great brands, but pulling off an event that engages, excites, and connects audiences, well, that takes a village. And we're that village. My name is Alyssa.

Rachel Andrews [00:00:47]:

I'm Rachel.

Felicia Asiedu [00:00:48]:

And I'm Felicia.

Alyssa Peltier [00:00:49]:

And you are listening to Great Events, the podcast for all event enthusiasts, creators, and innovators in the world of events and marketing.

Felicia Asiedu [00:00:59]:

Hi, everyone. What's been going on in this wide, wide world of events? My name's Felicia, and I'm your host for this week's episode. And I'm so excited about this one. I'm always excited about episodes. I think I'm just an excitable character because this one's all about partnerships. And I don't know if anyone's ever seen me do my talk on will you marry me? When I'm talking about the best way to form partnerships, but I always say you can't just get straight into that. You've got to date people first a little bit, even in the world of business. And I think I've been dating Anita Howard now for long enough that we should get married.

Felicia Asiedu [00:01:32]:

So I'm joined by Anita. Go, Anita. Introduce yourself for us.

Anita Howard [00:01:39]:

Hi there. I love that marriage thing. I think it's necessary. My name is Anita Howard. I'm actually the co-founder of ICE, a community for global event planners.

Felicia Asiedu [00:01:49]:

Fantastic. And I'm also joined. We're joined by Andrew, who's one of your partners. Andrew, we're now dating. This is our first date, so if you could introduce yourself on this date.

Andrew Perrott [00:02:00]:

It's a pleasure. Nice to be on date with you, Felicia. I'm Andrew Perrott. I'm the founder of Chorus Creative Group. We comprise of Chorus, which is a live event creative agency, Scotch Creatives, which is a drinks brand and marketing agency in chorus arts, which specializes in contemporary art exhibitions and events.

Felicia Asiedu [00:02:19]:

Phenomenal. I love seeing the chorus folk out at events. I see Cassidy a lot on panels that I'm on, and Aaron as well, who's just super passionate about what he does. So it's been lovely getting to know some of your team, and now, nice to have you on our podcast. So, thanks for joining us.

Andrew Perrott [00:02:33]:

Fantastic. Well, thank you for having me.

Felicia Asiedu [00:02:35]:

No problem. So, let's get straight into it. When we sort of met before, we were talking about, you know, we got into this conversation, we're going to talk about partnerships and how to create them and all that. And Andrew, you asked a really good question. You said, what do we mean here by partnerships? What are we specifically talking about? And I said, that would be great to define that early on. So, I'm going to throw it straight to you. What do you think we mean? What do you mean when you talk about your partners in a business context?

Andrew Perrott [00:03:01]:

I think it's quite colloquial, it's quite informal these days. And like you, after we had initial chat, so thinking about it, I think the partners, from my perspective, come from all angles and all sides of just day-to-day operation. They may have started as clients, they may have started as suppliers, they may start as stakeholders or other agencies, but I just find, well, certainly in my day to day experience, the roles between stakeholders on a project or in our working life have become so blurred that you end up sort of gravitating towards like minded people and you just find a spark and you realize you've got something mutually in common and it tends to grow very naturally from there, but it's hugely, hugely rewarding and ultimately beneficial.

Felicia Asiedu [00:03:52]:

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. Anita, what do you think to that?

Anita Howard [00:03:55]:

I absolutely agree. It's all about that collaboration piece of actually getting a sector to move forward and actually helping people to move forward. So I think the partnership thing for me is about people actually facilitating what could be great for them as well, which they go into a great partnership. And as Andrew says, it's got great outcomes and obviously commercial outcomes as well. Not just obviously the lovely-dovey bit, but actually things that actually achieve results for people. So, yeah, I just. Partnerships are where life should be happening within the events world because we do it. So sometimes that thing about the them and us situation in partnerships is really wrong.

Anita Howard [00:04:40]:

And I think it's important now in this new world that we live in is the blurring of those are very, we're in it together, let's achieve something.

Felicia Asiedu [00:04:48]:

I think, you know, we've been working together for a long time now, like, five good years. And I think one of the things I've always appreciated about working with you that, you know, like you said, there's a commercial element to our relationship. There's a contract somewhere that gets signed where we get these things that we need, but we also sit there, and we ideate, and we're kind of like, I've had an idea. I've thought about this. I remember one time, you're like dog walking in the park. What do you think? Or cook off for a group of people that just want to come together. And I love that we're able to just chat and think, well, what would be, yes, mutually beneficial for us, but for the audiences that we serve, like, how could we make life good for them as well?

Anita Howard [00:05:25]:

Because I think that thing of breaking down the barriers of society in your personal kids or grandkids or whatever, you see them using technology and platforms and everything else in a different way. And it's the breaking down of those barriers. And I think sometimes in business, we can almost be a bit too formal, and it's trying to make sure that changes for everyone's benefit. I think casting, talking about the glue of everyone, those stars aligning together. And that, to me, is a perfect partnership. And the issue, I suppose, some of us have within the events industry is how do you improve Roi on that and actually basically developing that into something that the business goes, oh, my goodness, this was amazing. If they're still working in quite a traditional, formal way, which we find within our corporate organizations that are members, is actually having the trust that people believe that you're not just going after them because you're trying to get into the likes of PwC is trying to make sure that everyone's breaking down those barriers to build up the best partnership.

Felicia Asiedu [00:06:32]:

And how do you identify them, Andrew, how did you? Well, how did you and Anita start working together? And did you sort of identify all that's good partners work with, or how did that come about?

Andrew Perrott [00:06:41]:

Yes, I think it was, obviously, we were aware of ice, and I think, like all these things, perhaps we started chatting at an event or through a mutual connection, and I think it's. We met and very quickly realized that, a, we had a lot in common, and we thought similarly about the industry, and we saw there being potential for us to connect and partner on whatever project might be. We're very happy to be a member and a supporter of Ice, but equally, it's a two-way street, and Anita is very generous with her time, and it becomes much bigger than a transactional relationship.

Anita Howard [00:07:17]:

You've just had an amazing thing happening with some of your clients where they're going, you're doing this for us, but you can do that for us as well. I think that's what's really interesting that happens with your partnerships, isn't it?

Andrew Perrott [00:07:28]:

For the context of this conversation, partnerships for me personally and everyone I work with, it's very altruistic. We go without any expectation. We partner with people because we like and respect them and we see there being a mutually beneficial reason to be involved. But if you then take that forward to what does that mean potentially beyond just learning more and widening your network is all of our industry? Certainly my business is entirely built on referral. When we work with new clients and new accounts, how are you supposed to go in and try and convince someone that their most important live event in their career to put that trust in your hands if there isn't some personal connection and someone has said to them, these guys know what they're doing, and it's not a facetious way of trying to get to that. But that is the practical output and benefit sometimes is you, you widen your, your group of connections and somebody says you really need to meet so and so because they could do with your advice. That's how simply it comes.

Andrew Perrott [00:08:31]:

And our entire business is built on that because come back to my earlier, but everything is so integrated. I don't think anyone can be an expert in everything, particularly in sort of live event world. And you increasingly lean on your partners and your collaborators more and more and you need that expertise. So I think it just fosters if, if you go in curious and generous and open minded, that's where eventually it pays back. But you go in very genuinely in the first place, I think is most important.

Felicia Asiedu [00:09:02]:

Absolutely love that viewpoint. I think even as I was listening to us, you know, I'm listening to us have a conversation, I'm like, I want to make sure our listeners have something tangible they can take away and, you know, what are we given to them beyond this nice conversation we're having and that viewpoint of trust? And, you know, as an event planner, you are doing some of the largest events with hefty budgets being trusted to prove that Roi. You need to be able to put someone in place and trust that they're going to deliver, you know, even the nuts and bolts of the staging just down to that level, you know, so that you can feel confident that this is done and it's going to work.

Andrew Perrott [00:09:38]:

And there'll be some clients and some brands we work, we may not necessarily do all of their work, but if there's a live broadcast or if there's a moment where it really is on the line, then we do get a phone call because we've been in that situation with them before and that sort of goes down the line in turn. We have specific, we have lighting designers and content creators that we have that relationship as well when we need something to be absolutely on the money. And the brief is a rushed 32nd phone call because it all has to happen story. But you know they're going to get it and you know the first edit is going to be perfect. What value does that have beyond the commercial side? It's just that sense of reassurance and be able to operate quickly. And I suppose that's the tangible output of the start of this conversation. Why even bother trying to connect with people in a collaborative way? Because that's ultimately you end up with a black book of people who will get you out. I joke with my guys, if my phone rings at quarter to six on a Friday afternoon, I take a deep breath and wait for whatever the drama is that's about to come down the line and we go into action and you make something happen.

Felicia Asiedu [00:10:51]:

I love that. I know when to not call you then.

Anita Howard [00:10:56]:

No, I was just going to say that whole thing of actually having a book of people that you can call upon, it's so crucial. And, you know, I can't emphasize enough the things that I hear a lot of our members say. You just go, yeah, that's because you've got connections with each other. Some people, they don't build up that trust network as they develop. And so I think that's really important going forward for anyone walking away from this is go and build your network up. Talk to people. If someone talks about something, let's have a chat about it. Let's do it.

Anita Howard [00:11:30]:

Because that's where the partnerships build up.

Felicia Asiedu [00:11:33]:

So thinking about, like, you know, that supplier relationship versus partner relationship, how do you know when you've tipped the balance from good supplier, great supplier, trusted supplier, into actually know that's a partner?

Anita Howard [00:11:46]:

So my big thing is very important that you have. You start from the beginning of having a partnership that actually has got structure to it and people understand where they stand. And once you get into that, you can then move forward into it becomes, I'm just going to give Felicia a call about something, something that's really important. I think you need to start with a structure piece because everyone needs that. And then basically, once we're all comfortable that we're delivering on what, because it's a two-way street. We do within ICE and marketing activity plan sheet up for our partners, and everyone hates it, and we insist they meet every month with us just to make sure we're all on track for anything. And I think that's really important to usually three months in, we then start believing that everyone's doing the right thing and everyone trusts you, you trust them, and we all go, right. Yes, let's do it.

Anita Howard [00:12:39]:

But I think the structure at the beginning is important. And then friendship.

Felicia Asiedu [00:12:42]:

Yeah, I mean, I know it's really good. When we have, like you say, the tracking sheet, we can follow along. We at least know what the structure of our relationship is. And then you and I can go for coffees every now and again and just make it very friendly, which I just think like, and I know I'm saying it in a funny way, but when we're talking about nurturing these relationships so that they do go beyond just the kind of like that, the structure pieces. What advice can you give to how you nurture a partnership? Andrew, if you were thinking about how do I make it, you know, just continue to work to nurture, I think.

Andrew Perrott [00:13:14]:

It's a bit similar to what Anita was just saying around when it becomes more of a partnership as opposed to just a connection is, I think it's common goals, agreeing when you stop just being sort of friendly and you think, actually there might be a way we could work together on something. And it might. And to give a tangible example, there's a number of peer agencies that we collaborate with and we have different specialties, and we get on very well. And every now and then, we'll get together and think, what projects or brands do we think we could potentially combine on and provide a solution to, and. Or it might be more educational. Again, another agency that might have a real expertise that we don't and vice versa. And then that's more of an internal thing. If you spend the time and you share what you know in a very open way.

Andrew Perrott [00:14:03]:

And I think to come back to the question of how do you nurture or develop that, I think it's being really open about what's the objective. So if people start spending time on something, then it's important to respect that. So, you know, it might be, let's combine and see if we can improve our capability on X, Y or Z, and we'll share an amount of time with one another over the next month or three months. But what's the output? What is everyone getting for that? Just so that no one feels like you're constantly being asked of favor? So the natural next step of that open conversation, initially, it's actually, could we put in a monthly meeting? Because what I want to get out of it is X or Y. Are you okay with that? Are you cool with that? And does that work for you? And I think it's just having that. It's like, coming back to your introduction, Felicia, it's, like, dainty.

Felicia Asiedu [00:14:52]:

You're absolutely right. Anita, if you could reveal to us, this is me just asking you to be really honest. Have you ever had any link challenges? You don't have to name the partner, but have you ever had any challenges that you've been like, oh, that's just not working?

Anita Howard [00:15:06]:

Oh, I've had a few along the way, you know, many years ago. The challenge is when that breakdown of structure, then basically familiarity. I can never say that word, comes in and no one's looking at the detail anymore on both sides, you know, sometimes happens. And then basically, I think one of the big things for when this particular relationship broke down is that you have to be honest and go, it's not working. You know, we have a saying that it's only home furnishings. You know, events are very, very stressful and everything else. So I think it's really important that honesty and actually break the tie when you think it isn't working. You know, sometimes you just go, and I know you can't always do that.

Anita Howard [00:15:47]:

Obviously, I'm kind of. I run my own company, so it's easier, but sometimes you just have to be honest and also, it's ruining your. Your brand. You know, if something's gone wrong and no one's joining in together, you know, when there's a problem happening, things happen. It's not perfect all the time. And I think sometimes the best partnerships come out when things haven't gone by and you basically sort them out. And if they don't sort out, then let's call it a day.

Felicia Asiedu [00:16:13]:

I think that's such good advice. I mean, you mentioned the word brand there. A lot of the partnerships that, I mean, I build for our team are because of our brand. And by that, I mean we find brands that align with us, that are working towards those shared goals that you've both spoken about. And so in order for that to bolster your brand, I think you need to protect it and not just continue to do those partnerships because you're friends or because, you know, the lines are getting blurred, and there's that familiarity and all of that, you've got to look after your brand at the end of the day. And that's for both your organization and for your clients who are relying on that trust that we spoke about and all those things that they need so that they can know that you're doing the right thing by them as well. So, yeah, hard advice that we have to sometimes chop that away, get rid of that relationship.

Anita Howard [00:17:03]:

You just go like, no, but, you know, also it's making sure if something has gone wrong, you know, it's not the end of the world. You know, you carry on and everything else, and you don't suddenly drop them like a ton of bricks. Go, no, this partnership's not been good. I'm just out here. I'm out of here. There's been a problem. So, you know, build up that thing again, see if you can get back on the right track with people, because I think often people just wash their hands, go, oh, God, that's a disaster. You know, no one's died.

Anita Howard [00:17:35]:

You know, it's kind of like…

Felicia Asiedu [00:17:37]:

We’re all just running events, people.

Andrew Perrott [00:17:42]:

But it certainly doesn't work out. It doesn't have to be a relationship issue. You recognize it hasn't worked, and you move on, and you respect one another's time, and there's no reason to fall out. Just if something hasn't worked out as you hoped. And the whole spirit of trusting a potential partner is you're trying something often for the first time. So you've got to go into it willing to fail for it, to ever actually having any chance to succeed, really. So it doesn't always, doesn't have to be an awkward circumstance if things don't work out, I think, certainly in my experience, completely agree.

Felicia Asiedu [00:18:19]:

So, on that note, and to try and wrap us up a little bit, what makes you a good partner, Andrew? What makes. Is it? Is it you, or is it Chorus? I don't want to put all the pressure on you.

Andrew Perrott [00:18:31]:

It's as simple as just coming to something very honestly and straightforwardly. I would like to think that anyone I work with would tell you I'm very honest, good, bad, or otherwise, and I'd be a terrible poker player and all that sort of thing. And again, I would like to think that is consistent. That's whether or not it's an internal or with a client or with a partner, whomever. And I think as long as you've got that, as long as you don't have an ulterior motive, and as long as you treat people respectfully, and you're very clear about what your expectations are. You can't do much more than that, really. And then the personal side of it takes over, as you say. Then you develop a friendship, and it runs from there.

Andrew Perrott [00:19:10]:

But I think if you just start as you mean to go on again, the final point there is without any expectation, but whenever I've ever contributed or offered anything to a circumstance, I've always received it back tenfold. So the smallest act of generosity ends up coming back, and that's not a reason to do it, but that's certainly a lovely thing when it happens.

Felicia Asiedu [00:19:32]:

Oh, that's very nice. Oh, that's like our word of the day. I love it.

Andrew Perrott [00:19:39]:

Holiday. We're all in a good mood.

Felicia Asiedu [00:19:42]:

I could wax lyrical here, but what makes you a good partner?

Anita Howard [00:19:46]:

I think the thing of, you know, sharing interest and being excited about things, that sort of makes me, you know, I'm always looking for how to, they think of things differently and then partnering with people that are kind, you know, like that whole kindness piece. I think I feel that, as Andrew said, once you're kind to someone, it makes your day and then you get it backloads in advance. So best thing is just, you know, being lovely, enthusiastic and making sure that it's really great fun to go to work each day.

Felicia Asiedu [00:20:18]:

Oh, love that so much. I think when I think about, you know, the people that we partner with, we've got some, for example, we've got some media partners that, you know, some of that is, like I've said before, transaction or we pay, you put the thing in. We've got others where they're like, we really want to talk about sustainability because it's so important. And they have what you just said, that passion, they've got something in them that's like, this is important. Shall we just talk about it together? Shall we just do an event together? And you're like, yeah, because it's just important. And I love being driven. I think maybe that's me personally. I'm a very passionate person as well.

Felicia Asiedu [00:20:51]:

So when someone comes with that swell of, like, fresh air and passion, it drives me so much. I'm like, yeah, let's do it. I'm sure the business doesn't always love it because it's like, where is the commercial value?

Andrew Perrott [00:21:06]:

Yeah, exactly. You're right. You gravitate to those people, don't you? That's natural.

Felicia Asiedu [00:21:12]:

Yeah, definitely. So if we were to just leave people with one piece of advice, let's say, let's give this piece of advice to somebody who's not entirely sure how to even start building partnerships. They're just like, what are you talking about? Who do I start talking to? I can't just pick up the phone, or do I just bump into someone at an event? What would be your piece of advice that you leave someone with to go and form good partnerships? Andrew, we'll start with you.

Andrew Perrott [00:21:36]:

I would say reach out directly. We're all used to direct communication either via LinkedIn or industry events, obviously. ICE Expo, that's where all of the great partners are in the summer. But here in London just this week, we've had the D&AD Festival, the C2 in Montreal. There are so many opportunities now to get together in person with your industry. If you identify what you want to know more about or who you think you'd like to be in touch with, it really is as simple as plucking up the courage and go up and introducing yourself. I really don't think it needs to be more complicated than that.

Felicia Asiedu [00:22:11]:

Agreed. Anita, what have you got?

Anita Howard [00:22:13]:

You've summed that up, I think that's it. And be brave. You know, go for it. You know, have that conversation and reach out to any of us. We've got some great networks, so, you know, just talk to people, and they're always willing to help.

Felicia Asiedu [00:22:26]:

Absolutely fantastic advice. And I think I'll just wrap that last bit up and just say we're all human at the end of the day. And I think that's what great partnerships are built on. Humanity, relationships, you know, and no one is a giant or a king or a queen like you can just go and talk to them. And I think that's something I learned as I got older and, you know, wiser in my career, that we're all humans that have just, you know, got into our roles just because we've got big titles. Say we. Some of you've got big titles. It doesn't makeup.

Anita Howard [00:22:58]:

We, please.

Andrew Perrott [00:23:00]:

Everybody's making it up as they go along.

Felicia Asiedu [00:23:05]:

Brilliant. And on that note, thank you so much for joining us and we'll see you next time.

Alyssa Peltier [00:23:12]:

Thanks for hanging out with us on Great Events, a podcast by Cvent. If you've been enjoying our podcast, make sure to hit that subscribe button so you never miss an episode.

Rachel Andrews [00:23:22]:

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Felicia Asiedu [00:23:32]:

Stay connected with us on social media for behind-the-scenes content updates and some extra doses of inspiration.

Rachel Andrews [00:23:39]:

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Felicia Asiedu [00:23:48]:

Big thanks to our amazing listeners, our guest speakers, and the incredible team behind the scenes. Remember, every great event begins with great people.

Alyssa Peltier [00:23:58]:

And that's a wrap. Keep creating, keep innovating, and keep joining us as we redefine how to make events great.